Eden: Well, thank you for being willing to talk to us today. We’re so happy to get the opportunity to hear from you and learn from you. So thanks for joining us today. Tell us a couple of things that bring you joy.
Sam Storms: Wow! I would have to start with worship. Although I don’t have a great singing voice and I don’t play an instrument, I think I would rather spend time in corporate worship with God’s people than perhaps anything else in the world. The joy of the Lord, every time I sing praise to him. That’s probably preeminent.
Then, of course, secondly, as everybody would expect, just being around my children and grandchildren. I have five grandchildren now. The most recent one is three-and-a-half months old. Until you’ve experienced it, you really don’t know how great it really is. So I love that.
What brings me great joy, honestly, is writing. I love to write, probably second only to preaching. That is the great passion of my life. People often ask me, “Have you ever suffered writer’s block?” And the answer is “No, I never have.” Thank God! So I just love writing. So those are just 2 or 3 things that are real sources of joy for me.
Eden: Wonderful. And is there anything currently that you’re working on writing, other than articles for your blog?
Sam Storms: I recently submitted to the publisher a devotional commentary on Second Timothy and Titus. Kirkdale Press, which is related to Logos, Faithlife, and Lexham Press – they will be publishing that sometime, I think, in the spring. I’m currently writing a commentary on Romans for Baker Book House. I just finished chapter nine, so I’m a little over halfway done with that. And then I also just started teasing out the idea of writing a book on the steadfast love of God. That’s the phrase that’s used all throughout the Psalms for the transliteration of the Hebrew word “hesed.” And I’m just really digging deeply into that and all the implications of what it means to say that God’s love is steadfast.
Eden: Wow. That is wonderful. You mentioned that you not only write, but you’re a pastor. How long have you been in a pastoral ministry setting?
Sam Storms: A little more than 48 years. Actually, I stepped down as lead pastor of Bridgeway Church here in Oklahoma City on August 31st of last year (2022). So I’ve been at Bridgeway for 14 years, and the new senior pastor is now in place, and he’s doing great. The transition was very smooth. The people received him well. They honored me beyond what I deserved. But I now am full time with Enjoying God Ministries. I established Enjoying God Ministries in 2004 after I left teaching at Wheaton College. It’s a 501C3. I have a website, samstorms.org. People can go there and there are hundreds and hundreds of articles and book reviews and sermons, all free of charge for people to make use of. So, I travel somewhat extensively and speak and, of course, do blogging and writing. Yeah, some other projects, maybe down the road that I’m thinking of launching a YouTube channel ready to inaugurate that. So that keeps me very busy.
Eden: That sounds like you have plenty to do. For your YouTube channel, will that be answering specific questions or what will that look like?
Sam Storms: A little bit of everything. I want to address current issues that the church is facing. I’m not much to write on political issues or social controversies, unless the Word of God explicitly addresses them, and then I will. But I want to address issues. I want to do exposition of Scripture. I think one of the first things I may do is a verse-by-verse study of Second Corinthians.
The name for the YouTube channel will be Exploring Word and Spirit. And I’m very much committed to this, what I call, the convergence of Word and Spirit. Sadly, as you know, all you have to do is look around at churches and individual Christians, they oftentimes tend to gravitate to one or the other. They are either so Word oriented that they quench the Spirit, or they’re so Spirit driven that they’re untethered to the inspired, written Word of God. And I want to see the church flourish in the convergence, the unity of those two.
So that’s one topic that will probably be prevalent in virtually everything that I do, is how do we maintain that convergence and not allow these to compete with one another or let one somehow trump the other? I want to see them both flourish in the lives of Christians and in the local church. And it’s hard. I tell people all the time, this is not easy because human nature is hardwired oftentimes to one or the other. To work toward a convergence of the two, it takes a lot of patience, sacrifice, and determination. It’s just so easy to say, “No, this is too hard. I’m just going to one or the other side here and I’ll live with the consequences of it.” And I want to push back against that as best I can. It’ll be one of the main focuses of the YouTube channel.
Eden: Yes. I think that’ll be immensely helpful. I also have observed that it seems like even our personality plays into which side we desire more, whether we pay more attention to the Word or pay more attention to the Spirit.
Sam Storms: Yeah. Some people are just much more cerebral than others. Others are much more subjective and experiential. And I think both of those are part of the Christian life. We are mind and spirit. We’re not one to the exclusion of the other. And I want to see those converge in a very healthy and Christ-exalting way.
Eden: Wonderful. Yeah. Well, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about the Holy Spirit. I began working on our page for Bibles.net on the Holy Spirit after I graduated college. I had studied Bible in college, but it wasn’t until I had to look at all the places that Scripture talks about the Holy Spirit, that I began to realize what a major role he plays in our lives. A lot of the church communities I grew up in were more Word-focused, and the Holy Spirit was kind of a mysterious part of God. His Person was kind of less familiar to me than Jesus or our Heavenly Father. And yet, when I began to learn about the Spirit, my life changed so much, realizing that he is the source of our life. He’s how we are joined to Christ. And so, I would love to hear from you if you were talking to a new believer, what would you say is the importance of the Holy Spirit?
Sam Storms: It’s interesting you should ask that. Just about a week ago Sunday, I spoke at Bridgeway at a short little conference we had, and the title of my message was “What Happens When the Spirit Comes in Power?” And what I did in preparation for it is, I basically scoured the New Testament and wrote down every text that addresses the Holy Spirit. There was no way I could do that in a 45/50-minute message. But I had 66 points, and I got through them in 45 minutes. It was a miracle. The Holy Spirit still does miracles. But what I discovered or what I communicated to the people was that there is nothing in the Christian life that is possible without the presence and the power of the Holy Spirit. Everything about our relationship with Jesus, our salvation, our sanctification, our service, our ministry is rooted and grounded in what the Holy Spirit does for us. So it’s not like, “Oh, well, we can compartmentalize the Spirit over here and maybe give him a few tasks over there.” His presence is pervasive in the New Testament. And those 66 points that I made, I could have easily done 166. In fact, that’s one of the first things I’ll do with the YouTube channel. I want to share this message again with everybody because obviously not everybody was present at our church for that particular session.
For example, I shared up front two metaphors in the New Testament that I think really emphasized the role of the Spirit. John the Baptist said about Jesus that he would baptize us in the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:16). And of course, he’s drawing on the analogy with water baptism. And he’s saying, “Just as I have immersed you in water and you get soaked and drenched and you drip, Jesus is going to immerse you in the Holy Spirit. His presence, his power, is going to be with you everywhere. You’re going to be soaked and saturated by the Spirit.”
And then the other metaphor is one that Jesus used in Luke 24, when he told the disciples to wait until they were clothed with power from on high (Luke 24:49). And of course, he’s talking about Acts 1:8 and what happened at Pentecost in Acts 2. The idea is that the Spirit of God is something—and I’m not depersonalizing, he’s a Person, not a power merely, he’s a person—but we are clothed with him. We are dressed and adorned with the Spirit. He’s what we wear all the time, 24/7. Whether we’re in the shower, or asleep, or dressed up for church, or going to a banquet, we wear the Holy Spirit. We are dressed with his power. And so, when you begin to think about those kinds of images in the New Testament, you see how central and vital the Spirit is to everything about the Christian and the Christian life.
Eden: I’ve heard the verse that we’re clothed: “I will clothe you with power from on high” (Luke 24:49). But I’ve never thought about that as a metaphor, that we’re putting him [the Holy Spirit] on.
Sam Storms: And never taking him off! Never getting undressed.
Eden: Yes. That made me think about, you know, we talk about being filled with the Spirit, and Scripture talks about being filled with the Spirit. How would you explain that in light of what you just said – that he never goes away. So, what does being filled with the Spirit mean? What does that look like?
Sam Storms: Well, again, that’s a metaphor. Because what does the word “filled” imply? Well, you’ve got a container and you’ve got another one that has a substance in it, and you pour one into the other, you fill it up. So, the point to remember is every born-again Christian has the fullness of the Spirit indwelling them from the first exercise of faith in Jesus. So the Spirit is always fully, altogether, indwelling, and present with us.
But the Spirit isn’t always as active in every situation as we might otherwise prefer or need. So for example, in the book of Acts you read about, here’s Peter and Paul, who obviously have the Spirit in them—they’re clothed with power, they’ve been immersed in the Spirit—and it says, “And being filled with the Spirit, they spoke” or, “Being filled with the Spirit, they healed somebody” (Acts 2:4; Acts 4:8; Acts 4:31; Acts 13:9; Acts 13:52). So being filled is a metaphor designed to express the idea that in situations of emergency or special occasions, or when the need is great, the Spirit is activated and does empower us in ways that he might not on other occasions. So, it’s a special momentary empowering of the Spirit who already dwells within us. So it’s not like you’ve only got 80% of the Spirit and you get the extra 20% when you’re filled. Now you have 100% of the Spirit, but the Spirit works more powerfully in those moments than he might otherwise do. And that, I think, is behind the metaphor of being filled with the Spirit.
Eden: That’s really helpful. You talk about being empowered, and there are times when, you know, the Spirit might speak through us in an especially powerful way. What does our participation in that look like?
So I’m thinking of the many songs these days that talk about, you know, “come Holy Spirit” and “do this” or “do that.” And so sometimes I think, erroneously, we talk as though the Spirit is something that we can control. And yet in the book of John, it talks about how the Spirit is like wind and we don’t direct him, but he does according to his own will (John 3:8). At the same time, we’re told there are ways we can quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19). Would you say that that empowering is something that’s totally up to him [the Holy Spirit], or are there ways that we can invite his presence, so to speak?
Sam Storms: Well, we can’t compel the work of the Spirit. He won’t be forced. He won’t be pushed. But he does want to be pursued and prayed for. Are there things that we do? Yes, obviously.
I mean, Ephesians 4 talks about, do not grieve the Holy Spirit through unrepentant and unconfessed sin (Ephesians 4:30-31). If we choose to live in unrepentant sin, we are resisting and grieving the work of the Spirit in our lives. First Thessalonians 5, “Do not quench the Holy Spirit by despising prophetic utterances” (1 Thessalonians 5:19-20). There are ways in which we can suppress or resist his work.
Now, ultimately, the Spirit is sovereign, and if he wants to overcome that, he certainly can. But the way that he overcomes it is by bringing conviction to us about the ways that we’re quenching and grieving him. When he brings that conviction, he empowers us to repent, and stirs us to cry out to him to do more than he has been doing up until that point. So yes, there is human responsibility, obviously we are to repent. We are to confess. We are to pray. We’re to saturate ourselves in Scripture. We’re to worship the Lord in spirit and in truth. Those are the ways in which the Spirit then begins to exercise and manifest his presence in and through us in extraordinary ways.
Eden: That is so helpful. And I think what you just said is a good reminder that the Holy Spirit is God and not a force, not a power. He is full of power, but he’s not raw power. He’s personal. What you said is tremendously helpful.
Another thing I thought about is spiritual gifts. So Christians are told in Corinthians and in Romans that we’ve been given these gifts from the Spirit to help build up the church (Romans 12:4-8; 1 Corinthians 12-14). What would you say to a newer believer about the importance of knowing their spiritual gifts, or what it looks like to pursue using those to a greater degree?
Sam Storms: Yeah. First Corinthians 14:1 Paul is very clear, “Earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy” (1 Corinthians 14:1). So I say this to people all the time. I’m probably going to offend some of you, but just listen, this is what Paul said. If you’re not earnestly desiring spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, you’re sinning because sin is consciously, willfully disobeying the commandments of God’s Word. And people go, “whoa, you mean this isn’t an option for me?” I said, “no, it’s not. That’s not advice. It’s not counsel.” Paul didn’t say, “Hey, go pray about this.” He says, “earnestly desire them” (1 Corinthians 14:1). So yes, it’s important.
First Peter 4 says each one of us has received a gift of the Spirit. We’re to use it to build up others (1 Peter 4:10). First Corinthians 12:7—The manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the common good. Which is an important point, by the way: spiritual gifts are not a thing. For example, here’s my Bible. If I give you this book, you could say, “Oh, Sam gave me a gift.” But this book is different from Sam. That’s not the case with spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts are the Holy Spirit manifesting his presence through us. Paul says it, “The manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the common good” (1 Corinthians 12:7). So a spiritual gift is not a thing separate from the Spirit. Spiritual gifts are the Holy Spirit operating in and through us, in vocal, visible ways to build up other believers.
So how important is it even for a new Christian? Well, if I were going to remodel my kitchen, and I hired somebody and he only showed up with a hammer and a screwdriver, I’d really question whether or not he’s going to be able to do a good job. He needs a multiplicity of tools, maybe a couple of assistants. Well, it’s kind of like that way in the church. If we show up in church or at a small group, and we don’t avail ourselves of the tools and the resources that God has given us to build up people and to expand the kingdom of God, we’re going to fail miserably. Spiritual gifts are those tools. They’re the resources that God has granted us to encourage and instruct and hold accountable and love on other people to their upbuilding and to the glory of Jesus.
Eden: Wow. Wonderful. It also seems like when we talk about spiritual gifts, I found that in Christian communities we can talk about them almost like the results of a personality test. Like, “I’ve got these four gifts and so-and-so has the gift of evangelism.” But in light of what you just said, we’re commanded to earnestly desire them (1 Corinthians 14:1). And so, do you think that’s a wrong way of thinking and instead we should desire all of them? How would you look at the gifts as an individual?
Sam Storms: You know, that’s a great question. And it’s a little bit controversial because there are some people who tend to equate personality traits with spiritual gifts. Now, I’m not suggesting that the Spirit doesn’t sometimes flow in conjunction with our personalities and our native talents. He certainly can do that. But just because a person teaches seventh grade math and history in a school doesn’t mean they’re going to have the gift of teaching to stand up and expound Scripture to a congregation of men and women. Just because a man is the CEO of a Fortune 500 company and does it very well, doesn’t mean he’s necessarily qualified to be an elder in the local church.
So, yes, we need to consider our native talents and personality. But I think the Spirit of God can work not only just through those, but above and beyond them, and even sometimes contrary to them. I think we should avoid ever trying to equate my personality, my interrelational style, with spiritual gifts. I’ve known people who were, you know, blue collar workers who never got past high school, who are incredibly gifted by the Spirit to minister through the Word of God, to the building up of the church. Some people that might be introverted by nature are incredibly gifted to encourage others. Those who are extroverted oftentimes can have the gift of service where they’re just behind the scenes, you know, folding chairs, serving coffee. So let’s be careful that we don’t give too much of an overlap between personality and native talents on the one hand, and spiritual gifts on the other.
Eden: That’s very helpful. So as an individual discerning their spiritual gifts, is that something that is—you might have a couple of them? Is that something that you just pray for any of them that you desire?
Sam Storms: That’s a great question. You know, 1 Corinthians 12:11, Paul says that the Spirit apportions or distributes these gifts according to his will. I believe a Christian has at least one gift and can have a multiplicity of gifts. I think I counted 9 or 10 when I looked at the Apostle Paul that he operated in. I think, obviously, we are really to come to the Lord and say, “Lord, how do you want to make use of me in the church and in your kingdom for the blessing of other people and to exalt Jesus? What ministries can I pursue that would be most beneficial to the body of Christ? And Lord, equip me appropriately for that.” If somebody has just an incredible burden for the lost, ask the Lord to impart the gift of evangelism. If an individual has this overriding desire to communicate truth, ask that he would grant you the gift of teaching, and it would develop over time through practice and experience. I’m not a huge fan of spiritual gifts inventory tests. There’s nothing sinful or wrong about them. The reason I don’t like them is the same reason I don’t like any personality test. There’s no nuance. Here’s my illustration. I think I remember reading on a personality test, “What would you rather do: spend time in the presence of ten individuals talking, or alone in your room reading a book” And my response is, “It depends on the book; depends on the people.” I can’t give you a yes or no. That’s just me. So sometimes the inventory tests are not quite capable of teasing out nuance in a person’s life.
My approach to spiritual gifts if people are wondering how can I know, how can I, as you say, discern what I have? Stop gazing in on your navel. Stop the introspection. Lift up your eyes, look around you and see the needs that are everywhere, because they are everywhere. If you see an elderly person who can’t do yard work, go over on a Saturday with friends and mow the grass and trim the hedges and clean out the garage – that’s the gift of service. If you see somebody who’s struggling financially, ask the Lord to enable you to give generously to them. You might have the spiritual gift of giving. You see somebody who’s discouraged, ask the Lord to give you words that will uplift them and encourage them. So in other words, identify a need, step in to meet it and your gift will meet you there. God will supply whatever gift you need to enable you to help that individual or to bless them in some way.
So, I take a far more practical approach to discovering your spiritual gifts rather than trying to check a box here and there and, oh, that means I have this gift, or I have that one. There’s nothing wrong with that. If it helps you, great. I take a more practical approach.
Eden: That’s super helpful. And that reminds me of, I believe it’s the beginning of First Corinthians where he says, “You do not lack any spiritual gift” (1 Corinthians 1:7). The way that you talk about that, just asking the Lord to equip you for whatever need you see, I think that’s so much healthier than some of the ways that I’ve thought about spiritual gifts in the past, you know, thinking, well, I have this gift or that gift, and I can meet this or that need instead of saying, “Lord, whatever the need is, make me available to you.”
And I think a theme that has come through much of what you’re saying is just prayer—how all of the Spirit’s work in our life is acknowledged through prayer and requested through prayer. How would you encourage someone to seek the Lord as they want to grow in just knowing the Spirit.
Sam Storms: Yeah, well, there’s several things. Obviously praying, coming to the Lord regularly, combined with fasting, just intensifies your focus. And be relentless in your prayer. But I tell people, if after an extended season of prayer, the Lord has chosen not to impart that gift to you, maybe it’s not his will for you to have it and just say, “Okay, Lord, thank you for the gifts that you do give me. Help me to use them faithfully.” But don’t beat yourself up because there’s no spiritual gift that every Christian is supposed to have. There’s a diversity in the body of Christ.
Second, I would say read good books. Learn about these gifts. What’s their nature? Read books that give you examples of those gifts in practice.
Third, spend time with other Christians who have the same desires you do, whether in small one-on-one gatherings or small group settings. Talk about it together and have other people lay hands on you and pray for you and encourage one another in the pursuit of these gifts. Those are just a couple of suggestions for people.
I think the most important thing is, I run across Christians all the time who live in constant guilt because they don’t have this or that gift. And I say, look, ultimately, it’s not up to you; it is up to the Lord. One of the ways, though, that he chooses to impart gifts is by putting a desire in your heart for them. So if you don’t have a desire for the gift of teaching, or you don’t have a deep desire for the gift of tongues or prophecy, don’t worry about it. Just look at what you want to do, what desires God has given you, the opportunities that you face, and step into those confident that the Spirit of God will empower you to meet whatever needs there are.
Eden: Wonderful. Yes. And I think much of what you’re saying is just a helpful encouragement to depend on the Holy Spirit for these things, to not think that all our growth or gifting or use in God’s kingdom comes from our own efforts, but it’s empowered by the Lord. That’s so encouraging. And encouraging that the Spirit imparts gifts to us. What a blessing to get to be a blessing to others and show them the love of Christ and be a vessel that he uses to bless others.
Sam Storms: So true.
Eden: Well, I would love to hear lastly, if there’s a part of God’s Word that is especially precious to you? I know that might be a seasonal thing as well. So, if it’s a part of Scripture that’s especially precious to you right now, that’s a fine answer as well.
Sam Storms: Right now, two things.
One, obviously, the book of Romans, because I’m just digging in writing a commentary on Romans and it is so rich, so complex, so beautiful. But secondly, not just the Psalms as a whole, but a whole lot of them, because as I told you earlier, I’m planning on writing a book on the steadfast love of God. And so I walked through the Psalms over several days and noted every verse where that phrase appears, and it’s dozens and dozens and dozens of times. Everything about our relationship with the Lord, everything about hope, and ministry, and the things that we need of the Lord, everything is rooted in his steadfast love. And so, over and over and over again: “for the steadfast love of the Lord endures forever” (Psalm 136:1). The steadfast love of the Lord goes from day to day. “Lord, do this or that for the sake of your steadfast love” (Psalm 44:26). So I’ve just been immersed in that phraseology over and over again. Lamentations 3, “The steadfast love of the Lord and his mercies are new every morning (Lamentations 3:22-23). So that’s really been weighing on my heart in a really good way of late. And, of course, obviously the book of Romans too, I’m thinking about it night and day.
Eden: Yeah, well, both are really rich, the Psalms and Romans. Would you be willing to give us a sneak peek into a couple of the things that you’ve learned about the steadfast love of the Lord as you’ve soaked in those passages?
Sam Storms: Well, I’ll just give you one. I already mentioned it. The psalmist will repeatedly make requests of the Lord like, “forgive my sins or protect me from my enemies,” or “deliver me from this particular trial that I’m in.” And then it says, “for the sake of your steadfast love.” I thought, that’s interesting. It’s not so much for my sake and for my benefit, although it certainly is. But he envisions God doing this so that people would see and take note of God’s steadfast love and praise him for it. So ultimately, although the steadfast love of the Lord is directed toward us individually, it is designed by God to redound to his glory and praise. Do these things for the sake of your steadfast love, that is, so that others would see it and understand it and know it, and marvel at who you are as God. That has been a profound thing that I see everywhere in Scripture. It’s not just the steadfast love of the Lord. It’s everything, ultimately, for the sake of God’s glory and praise. God is very God-centered, and that’s good. We want him to be. That just brings that out in a fresh way to me as I’ve been reading through the Psalms.
Eden: Thank you so much for taking the time, Sam, to chat with us and share your insights that you’ve learned from God’s Word. We’re just so thankful for your ministry. I know on Bibles.net, we will often link to your articles. I was just reading one the other day on “Why I Am a Continuationist” on The Gospel Coalition which was a blessing. Thank you so much for your time.
Sam Storms: My pleasure. Any time. I’ve really enjoyed this. It’s good to know about your ministry, too.
Eden: Thank you so much for listening to our podcast today. If you enjoyed our conversation, I would encourage you to like or subscribe to our podcast so that you can hear the next conversation. And if something that you heard today spoke to your heart or got you thinking, I would encourage you to not let the day go by without talking to God about what’s on your mind. We believe that he loves you and that he’s pursuing you today out of that love.