Eden: Drew, thanks so much for talking with us today and for being willing to share a little bit about the book that you’ve written and about what God is doing in your life. I’m excited to hear from you. And for anyone that doesn’t know, Drew Hunter is a pastor in Indiana, and he’s written a delightful book called Made for Friendship: The Relationship that Halves Our Sorrows and Doubles Our Joys. But that goes along with several other books that he’s written through Crossway. And we’re going to hear a little bit more about what he does with his life and what Jesus has called him to. So, Drew, thanks for being with us today.
Drew Hunter: Yeah, thanks for having me. I love your ministry as well (Bibles.net) and so glad to be able to talk to you.
Eden: Awesome. Well, what are a couple of things that bring you joy?
Drew Hunter: So a few things come immediately to mind. One is my season of life as a family right now. I have a great wife, and we love just enjoying friendship and marriage together. And we have four young boys. Three of them are in middle school, and then we have an eight-year-old. And it’s kind of just a silly, goofy, wild season. And I’ve had different times where it’s kind of tiring, but right now, it just seems to be a lot of fun. So that brings a lot of joy. And then spending time with different friends–just getting together and hanging out. There are groups of friends that I’ll go camping with, and [I’m] going skiing with a couple guys in a few days. And then just through the week, [I love] meeting with people, so love friends and family.
Eden: Are you going to be going skiing in Colorado or Utah somewhere?
Drew Hunter: Yeah, [Colorado]. We’re going to just go for a for a couple days together.
Eden: Awesome. Well, is there a part of God’s Word that is especially precious to you, and if so, would you share with us how that became a treasure to you?
Drew Hunter: Yeah, it’d be hard to pick just one. But a couple come to mind—we’ll go really micro and [then] a little bit bigger. So, Isaiah, in general, has been something I keep returning to. In fact, just this morning I decided to start reading from Isaiah 40 to the end of the book again. So, I just often will return to Isaiah. I just love it. And then there’s one verse that I’ve come back to a lot over time, and that’s in Isaiah 43, where God speaks to Israel after calling them—even just referring to him as like a worm (Isaiah 41:14). I mean, there’s a lot of sin in them, idolatry. But then he talks about he’s going to redeem them. And then he says this in Isaiah 43:4, “because you are precious in my eyes and honored, and I love you” (ESV). And just that kind of collection—precious to him, honored, [which is] the word for glory or heavy or weighty—it’s one of the rare, maybe the only time [in] the Old Testament where God kind of looks you in the eye and says, “I love you.” So that’s just a powerful thing to return to of just who we are and how God thinks of us and cares about us. And then also I return to often John 17, Jesus’s prayer before he died, just to see that we are on his mind and heart, and his purpose in coming here is for us, and he prays that we would be with him forever and see his glory. And then Romans 8. I guess I can’t just pick one. So, Romans 8 is amazing. You can make a strong case it’s the greatest chapter of the Bible, if you care to do that.
Eden: Yeah. Awesome. I was just talking with a friend about how God’s Word is creative and how when he speaks, he creates things [This idea was first brought to my attention by Pastor John Piper]. And when we speak God’s Word to each other, we create what the Word is talking about. So, when we share what he has said, that encouragement can be so powerful. And I was thinking, just as you spoke those words from Isaiah, it clarifies my own vision of God and his heart towards me. I read in your book today that that’s a verse that you’ve shared with friends in the past. And what a great verse to just remind our brothers and sisters in Christ of that. “That’s how God thinks of us.” What a treasure. Thank you for sharing that.
Drew Hunter: Sure. Yeah.
Eden: So I’d love to hear what brought about your book Made for Friendship. You start off the book by saying, “this isn’t something that I had really given two minutes of thought to,” and that might be kind of the same for a lot of us. But I love hearing how books came to be, because they take a good deal of work. And so just tell us what inspired this book, and how did you start writing it?
Drew Hunter: Yeah, so the beginning of it would go to when I was studying the book of Proverbs to teach it at the church I was previously a part of—Grace Church of DuPage. I was teaching the college and twenties ministry through Proverbs. So what I wanted to do before that series [was] just sit down with the book and read it straight through and collect the main themes. And I was expecting to find certain themes: relationships in general, money, work, and so forth. And I remember just being struck by this repeated theme of these verses that would say these powerful, clarifying statements about friendship in particular, not just neighbor relationships or marriage or general relationships, but friendship—and really strong statements: do not forsake your friend or your father’s friend” (Proverbs 27:10 ESV). There’s a responsibility to friendship…those kinds of things. And so, that just put it on the map. I realized that week “Wow, I’ve not really thought directly, explicitly, extensively about friendship. I’ve never read an article or book on it. I’ve never really had a conversation where that’s the main topic. What is this? It’s kind of just been assumed.”
I’ve had friends and enjoyed friends. And then the other part of that week was that I always want to think through “How does this fit in the whole Bible?” And so going to John 15 and Jesus calling his disciples his friends, saying that when he calls us to love one another as the new covenant love command, he defines it in terms of friendship, by saying, “This is love, there’s no greater love than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13). He defines the cross as an act of friendship. So all of these things [communicate], “this is really important.”
And I realize I did not think of myself regularly, explicitly, in terms of being Jesus’s friend. I wouldn’t have said “that’s wrong.” I would have known that verse existed. But as far as a functional reality in my life—Jesus is my Savior. He’s my king. But, “he’s my friend?” I’m like, what does this mean? And how do I live in light of this? And so that was the beginning for me of thinking about this topic and thinking about the relationship with Jesus in terms of friendship as well.
And then ever since that week of studying and teaching it, the topic just never left my mind. So, there weren’t a whole lot of books available at the time, certainly not many by Christians on this. So I would just pick up books over time. I just keep wanting to grow my thinking, read the Bible, collect things. When I was asked to teach somewhere on a topic, I’d pick this one to think about it a little bit more. And then over a few years, material was developing, and I became more aware of how this is really needed. The loneliness stats [were] increasing as I talked with people. A lot of people [were] like, “yeah, I haven’t really thought about friendships.” And when we talked, they’re like, “I’m actually a bad friend now that I think about it.” And then [again] there just weren’t many books out there. So, I was talking to a friend, and he had encouraged me to consider writing that. And by that time, I had a lot of collected material to think through. So, it seems like it met a need certainly at the time.
Eden: Yeah. Awesome. I think it’s neat the way that this came about, because often I think people have something on their mind, and they go to Scripture and find that Scripture also has something to say about what they were already thinking about. And yet, the Bible also tells us what should be important, the other way around. We come to Scripture, and we might see that there are priorities that God has for our lives, or gifts that he has, or things he finds valuable that we may have never thought of. And so, I love how you make us aware of the importance of friendship, as God has made us aware of that great importance through His Word. So [I’m] really grateful that you’ve spent the time thinking through that and letting the Lord teach you, so that we can also be taught as well.
Drew Hunter: Yeah, thanks for that. That’s a great a great point that we don’t want to just bring our categories to the Bible and never let it mess with them and create new ones.
Eden: Yeah. And so, in this book, you make some pretty amazing claims, like, “Friendship is the ultimate end of our existence and our highest source of happiness” (19). And throughout the book, you do explain that a little bit. But to get someone excited, maybe to read it, tell us what lies behind that. Why would you say that friendship is kind of the highest gift that we could enjoy in this life?
Drew Hunter: Yeah. It’s interesting. I think some people have read the book, and they see that it’s kind of assumed and then clarified. And when you get the whole vision of what I’m saying, it’s like, “Oh, I could see it: That makes sense.” Other people–I didn’t make it explicit enough to defend that statement. Some people were like, “What a wild overstatement that’s not substantiated.” So, here’s what I mean by that…and I’m not alone in that. I think what I at least did in the beginning of the book is show that Jonathan Edwards, John Newton, Augustine—other people have made similar kinds of statements. So the question is, “Why could friendship be called the ultimate end of our existence and our greatest happiness?” And the key to that [is] a couple of things.
So number one is friendship needs to be thought of in terms not just of horizontal friendships with others but also vertical with the Lord. And that friendship is not in a distinctive category outside of what even we would call communion with God, knowing God, being in an enjoyable love relationship with the triune God. So, once we recognize that friendship is part of that and an angle on that, that the Bible even gives us, then we can see, “Well, if the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever,” and we would say that “with Jesus eternal life is knowing him and that we’re created to enjoy knowing God” (John 17:3), well, then, once we see that Jesus himself gives us a category—and the Gospel of John substantiates this with this theme of love being wrapped into friendship—then we see, “Oh God made us for friendship love.” That’s one way to think about what we’ll experience forever with him.
And then when we think about our human relationships, we can also think of friendship as overlapping with other relationships. So it’s not just distinct from brother-sister relationships or parent relationships or marriage relationships. It actually overlaps with them. Parents, when they raise children, the goal is for a child to grow up and really become your friend in many ways. In marriage, the best part of a marriage is the friendship aspect. And so in the new creation to come, the Bible is clear—human marriages will be giving way to the greater marriage of Christ and the church. So we will be enjoying a marital relationship with him as the church and then with one another. It’s our brother-sister and friendship relationships that endure forever, not defined in terms of human marriage.
So as we look at where history is heading as communion with the Lord and one another, and then we see that the Bible gives us friendship as one angle to understand that, then we see that this is really why we’re made. We’re made to enjoy the richest of relationships with the Lord and one another.
Eden: Awesome. I love how you bring that out in your book. You bring out the beauty of friendship. And because you say friendship was established before the fall, and even that isolation is something that God said wasn’t good—even before the world was under a curse—and friendship is something that will last into eternity, I think that brings such a richness to our idea of friendship right now.
There are so many things in life that are difficult and painful, and so much of life that we endure includes suffering, and yet, as I listen to you talk, and as I read what you had to write in your book, friendship just seems to be this kind of glowing gift that God has given us—this wonderful goodness in the midst of a lot of the pain that we endure. And to know that that gift is not just something that we get to enjoy on earth but that, when our lives on this earth are done and we’re brought by Jesus into glory—if we’ve trusted in him—we’ll continue to get to enjoy that gift.
It just deepens my understanding of the close people in my life and makes me want to treasure them more and value them more, knowing just what a precious, precious thing that they are. And you said that we have cheapened the idea of friendship. I think of people talking about in [hopeful romantic] relationships, “Oh, they mentioned that I was only their friend; is our relationship over?” And even when we talk about our friends, we could talk about Facebook friends, and we also call our best friend our friend. So there’s really not a clear understanding of what it means to be a friend. How has God’s Word, in your study of it, altered your idea of what a true friend is?
Drew Hunter: It’s done a few things. First of all, [it has] elevated the significance of it by seeing that friendship–we’re made for this. And God is a God of relational love, and he’s made us in his image to experience it. And this is why “it’s not good that man should be alone” (Genesis 2:18), which I don’t take as just a statement on needing to be married, but it’s community and friendship. And so, because we’re made for it, then this is in our DNA. And so of course we’re wired then to experience the fullness of joy as a human through friendship. And then you see in life and how the Bible talks about friendships are meant to—as J.C. Ryle put it (and he’s kind of just reflecting a statement that kind of rolled through the ages)—essentially “friendship halves our troubles and doubles our joys.” So there’s a burden-bearing, burden-sharing load and work that friends do to lighten the load and carry it with us. And so we can endure suffering and sorrow with a friend next to us and with us and caring for us. And then all the greatest joys are best experienced when shared with somebody, rather than in isolation and alone.
So all our joys are multiplied. All our sorrows are eased, because of this great gift of friendship, which is why [J.C. Ryle] also said, “the brightest sunbeam in [the world] is a friend.” In light of the world being filled with sin and disappointment and sorrows, God has a bright sunbeam in it, which is friendship. And so, if that’s really what friendship is, then viewing it as just, “Well, I have 700 Facebook friends,” that’s an unfortunate use of the word. And then also other words we use that seem cheap, like “buddy,” “pal,” “chum,” “bestie,” that’s fine. And [to] some people, that’s really meaningful. But all of those collected together end up reinforcing a thin view of friendship. So there’s just something strange in our culture where we have a low, thin view of friendships, and it just seems like a light, non-weighty reality. But when you think about the weight of friendship, and then you actually think of the role of friendship in our own lives, we realize this is not just someone that you have a common interest with to kind of kill free time and have a few laughs with. This is one of the greatest gifts in the hardest and the best aspects of life, and it makes the hardest aspects less hard, and it makes the better aspects or best aspects better.
So what a significant reality. And that Jesus himself would use that language of friendship to define the cross, to define what the greatest love is, that’s a weightier reality than the way that we often use that term. Like you said, I’ve heard people say many times, “We’re not just friends, we’re family,” as if friendship wasn’t enough to carry the weight of the moment. Whereas I think you could also say, and maybe we’d resonate with this a little bit, too, [as this relates to] one of my brothers, my brother Trent, I’d want to say, “Listen, you’re not just my brother; you’re my friend.” That’s actually significant to add. And so it’d be great to just embrace the thickness of friendship as a weighty concept.
Eden: Yeah, and I imagine that if there are people listening, and they’ve heard you describe what this friendship that really the Bible holds out to us as what meaningful human relationships should look like, they’re going to be wanting that. Even as I was reading your book, I was having a million thoughts about “How do I go deeper or be more intentional?” And so I thought to hear from you experientially [would be helpful].
I know that in your book you give several ways to sharpen and deepen your friendships. But for you personally, what have been some ways that your friends have really ministered to you, and you’ve seen them be a great friend? And then, as you are a friend—whether to your wife or close friends or even kids—are there some ways that you especially enjoy extending your friendship to others?
Drew Hunter: Yeah, certainly. And as a side note, when we did the audio book recording of Made for Friendship, we added a chapter at the end, or I added a chapter, that collects and adds fifteen strategies for friendship. And there’s a Crossway article on their blog. I think I framed it for men in the Crossway article, like 15 Strategies for Men to Strengthen Their Friendships. So, if someone reads the book and needs more practical things, there’s even more there.
But for me, my most enjoyable friendships, when I think about these people, they’re just easy to be with. So there’s a connection between Christians who pursue becoming like Jesus, fighting sin, being humble, being kind, and, by the Spirit, that developing in them. And then, when you mix that with really spending time together—and then of course, there’s an element of just personalities clicking right—but you get the right kinds of personalities that click, especially with that godly factor and then time together [and you get friends who are easy to be with]. The most enjoyable friendships I have are people that are just easy to be with. They’re non-complicated. They don’t hold grudges. You don’t have to wonder if they’re judging you and criticizing you in their heart. And the best friendships are just the best of human relationships experienced over time together.
And then for me, I love—especially when the weather makes sense for this—hanging around a fire with either one or two or three other friends. So we’ll do that and maybe have some food and drinks around a fire. So I love doing that. I have some other friends that I go fishing with. I have some other friends I go backpacking with. So there’s sometimes adventure trips, and getting time together is great, but the best part of those trips [is] just being together and talking about all the important things of life together and then just having fun enjoying life together. I think there’s another part of that question you might have asked…
Eden: Oh, yeah. And then, what are some of your favorite ways to extend [friendship to] or intentionally pursue your friends?
Drew Hunter: Yeah. So I think for me, I’ve grown in trying to be an encourager. My default, something going on with my personality—no doubt in part because of the fall—I used to be more sarcastic, would be the word. And for some reason, I would even express friendship by making fun of someone, which I learned over time, they didn’t appreciate that. And a lot of people do that, and they don’t realize that even when people laugh, it doesn’t actually strengthen the relationship. So I’ve had to just kill that. I may still even have thoughts that I think are funny to share, and I’m like, “I’m just not going to do it because the laugh isn’t worth the subtle putdown pain.” And so I’ve just tried to more intentionally encourage people—draw attention to things I love about them, things I respect about someone, look for opportunities to draw attention to something they did in the past day, and just encourage people. So I’ve tried to grow in that just generally. I still have a long way to go. Even yesterday, I was tired, and I went to a couple events where people [were] around. And I was just telling someone today, “I was a lousy human friend in those situations.” One of the reasons I go to them is to encourage people and get to know them. And I kind of just stuck to myself, went to someone that I felt most comfortable with, and that was fine. There’s friendship there too. So that’s part of it. [But] just getting enjoyable time together.
And being an initiator for that [enjoyable time]. So not just being the one that someone has to call or set something up but initiate, setting up context, and then inviting other people, and even thinking, “Is there someone around who would enjoy being part of this gathering or enjoy hanging out? And how can we include them?” And then making sure they feel welcome and trying to set a tone of “we all want each other here, and we’re all happy that you’re here.” And then asking good questions. I’ve tried to learn to do that, because that really helps; conversation can be hard. Sometimes it’s quiet, it’s awkward: What do you do? But just the basic strategy of having a few go-to questions like, “What are you thinking about these days?” Or “Are you a reader?” And if so, “What books are you reading recently,” or “What books have you read that you’ve liked most?” And then trying to stay really curious. And love them enough in that moment to care about what they’re saying, even if it’s not immediately as interesting. Just be curious, and ask questions. And so doing that with people that I don’t know well and also closest friends—my mom, my wife, my closest friends—just still being interested in what’s going on in their [lives]. So I have had to try to intentionally do that. And I am interested, but I need to consciously express that and lean into that. And that just makes conversations great, and we get to know one another better.
Eden: Yeah. Lastly, would you say that there’s any way in the last couple of years that your friendship with Jesus has grown, or that there’s been something that has really helped you grow in your relationship with Jesus? We assume that a lot of the people that may be watching or listening didn’t grow up in a Christian home, and biblical faith is new to them. And so friendship with Jesus might feel a little bit elusive. So just tell us maybe a little bit how you’ve grown in your relationship with Jesus.
Drew Hunter: Sure. The way that comes most immediately to the forefront when I think of this is the same thing that I would have said years ago, but it’s the kind of thing that I need to keep revisiting, which is communing with him in the Word and prayer, both in a set-apart time and then throughout the day. I was even telling my small group last night [as] we were talking about how to pray for one another [that] January, February, March is often a really busy time. The kids get in sports. I have a few other things going on through the weeks, and then I can very quickly just get through it and it disappears. It’s just in front of me, and I want to be extra intentional to make sure that I’m blocking off time in the morning to read God’s Word and pray. There [are] different angles [from which] we can view the Word and prayer. One—it’s a spiritual discipline. We’re growing. But in particular, this is really how a friendship works. Friendship is communication: speaking and hearing and spending time with one another. So viewing God’s Word and prayer when I have that time, that’s time which is set apart for me to be with the Lord and for me to listen to him speak through the Bible, and for me to process that and actually internalize it, actually pay attention to what he’s saying and be curious. And then for me to share what’s on my mind and heart and talk to him. And then, through the day, I can too easily have that time and then, five hours go by and it’s like, “I don’t know that I really thought of him.” So I just want to, through the day, be talking to him and be aware of his presence and just have moments where I’m grateful to him. So, that’s not necessarily a new thing, but it’s something that’s continually revisited.
It’s like friendships, right? Friendships can strengthen and weaken depending on how much time you get with one another and [share] new experiences. And so it’s the same with the Lord and his friendship with us and ours with him. So, just making sure that if there’s a season where I feel like I’m not intentionally seeking to get to know him and enjoy him and talk with him and hear from him in the Bible that I strengthen that. So I’m even working on that.
Eden: Yeah, yeah. And I think that brings both freedom and intentionality to our relationship with God, because I can imagine someone who reads their Bible every morning, but then doesn’t really have a category for, “Oh, I can be conversing with the Lord all throughout the day, and I can I can hear him through biblically rich music and through maybe opening a Psalm in the afternoon or before bed at night. And I can keep up that ongoing relationship.” But then other people might have the ongoing relationship and yet be really missing out on intentional time with the Lord. And just like any other friend, we need both. So we always end with helping people add some books to their bookshelf. So are there any books, outside of Scripture, that have really been transformational in your walk with Jesus?
Drew Hunter: Yeah, thanks for asking that one. So, a few come to mind. So I really like Thomas Goodwin, the English Puritan from the 1600s, and he wrote a book called The Heart of Christ. Kind of the updated, modernized version of the heart of that book would be Dane Ortlund’s book, Gentle and Lowly, which is also awesome. I’ve read that several times. He’s a good friend of mine. So Thomas Goodwin—if you can kind of brave the Puritan writing, because it is a little bit hard to read, it’s amazing. And there’s just pages that soar. That was the beginning, for me, of reading Thomas Goodwin. I still read him. At least half the mornings, I’ll read a couple pages of something that he’s written. So Thomas Goodwin in that book and other things he’s written. He’s got this great little sermon called Encouragements to Faith and a book called The Glory of Christ—Volume Four of his works actually has a lot of my favorite things of his works. So that’s one thing.
And then, I’ve been really influenced by Greg Beale. He’s a biblical theologian, so he’s a little bit more of a higher shelf if you want [an] academic. But a lot of things he’s written on biblical theology or New Testament biblical theology or some of his works have been—I just enjoy him. I just get fired up reading him. His sentences are very long; he doesn’t have anyone trying to chop those up into smaller ones in the editing process. And he’ll use big words and not define them, but he helps me understand the whole Bible. And actually, the beginning of [understanding biblical theology], maybe more of an onboarding step, would be a book called God’s Big Picture by Vaughan Roberts. So you’re familiar with that one? Have you read?
Eden: I have not read it, but it goes over the whole story of the Bible. Is that right?
Drew Hunter: Yep. So actually, I was reading that a number of years ago, right when I was trying to figure out, “How does the whole Bible make sense?” And then he helped me see it was a big story.
It was actually right around the same time that—at Grace Church of DuPage in Warrenville—Greg Beale gave a sermon on the temple through the whole Bible. And so that’s probably why it was so informative for me, because fireworks were going off of like, “oh, this is one big story. The Bible is too amazing not to be true. Like, this is just a divine book and infinitely brilliant. And it’s all about Jesus and his glory and kindness [and] all these threads weave through the whole thing.” So Vaughan Roberts’s book was great [and] informative for me. And then Greg Beale kind of filled things out in some other things. But yeah, Vaughan Roberts would be a good first step there. So those are a few that come to mind.
Eden: Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing those with us. I’m curious to look into Thomas Goodwin. I know that there are so many wonderful Puritan authors, but when you know that one has really struck home for someone, it inspires you to go read it yourself.
So thank you, Drew, for your time today and for sharing a little bit of your life and heart with us. And we just really appreciate your willingness to spend some time with us and share about your book. So, thank you.
Drew Hunter: Yeah, well, thanks for the conversation. Love talking to you.
Eden: Thank you so much for listening to our podcast today. If you enjoyed our conversation, I would encourage you to like or subscribe to our podcast so that you can hear the next conversation. And if something that you heard today spoke to your heart or got you thinking, I would encourage you to not let the day go by without talking to God about what’s on your mind. We believe that he loves you and that he’s pursuing you today out of that love.